George "W"

[Genie!]

AK, I was using the oil as an example, the oil iS Iraq's, but what if it was the U.S or another coutry, pick one, that saddam wanted to come to and take something of ours or turn our country into Iraq and what it has become. It's really a scary thought. I mean, look at September 11th, we were hit in the worst way. We all felt fear right?

I agre with 2 cute. Saddam doesn't belong there and what if we were the people of Iraq and some crazy man just walked into our country and took away our freedoms and libirities? Then on top of that we had to deal with all these strange men and women who we didn't know across the border getting ready to fire upon on our country right at us. It's scary.

Like I said before, I have alot of friends over there fighting in the war. Some really good friends, and I just pray for their safety and the safety of all our troops. I hope they all return safely and quickly.
I don't understand either why some people protest the war. However there were a bunch of people who protested the vietnam war. And the army wonders why the army morale and the number of men and women who join the army these days are so very low, or why people drop out of the army so quick these days. Even they see it's getting to where it's not worth it. Why go over to another country and risk your very life to fight for what's right, only to see that a good majority of your own people don't support you or what you are doing?
I'm not going to pretend to understand war. War is ugly no matter how you look at it. Innocent people always die or get hurt, no matter what the effort is to try and spare them.
That's just my opinion, everybody esle gets to have their opinion as well, but it seems like I am the only one who has to explain my reasoning for my opinion or defend it.

[~R-B~]

Genie I never mentioned a word about that comment you made about it being U.S. oil and not Iraqi oil. In fact I just had to do a quick search to find out where that comment came from. *L

You are allowed to have your own opinion just as everyone else in the "free world" is allowed to have. Don't feel that you are being made to defend your opinions all the time, it's just that's what happens when people express their views on a VERY controversial subject is all.

My only point was to differentiate this present war from all the stuff that has been happening recently with Bin Laden, The Taliban and the terrorist attacks on U.S. soil. Those are 2 different issues. This war is not about terrorism. It's about taking Saddam out and restoring Iraq back to it's people so that they too may one day have all the freedoms and rights that we have.

I also want to say that my heart goes out to the first casualties of this war and their respective families. One was a U.S. Marine fighting for ownership of the oil field they were sent out to take possession of. The others were 4 U.S. and 8 British Marines who dies when their helicopter crashed. God Bless them and their families. [img]graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/rose.gif[/img]

[Genie!]

That's ok AK, I was having to look up that whole "oil issue" myself*S*
I mean no one any ill fate, or trying to start something, but we all feel like we must fight for what we believe in, in our beliefs.
I know George W. isn't a perfect president, and until they get a woman president no man will be *L* j/k
I'm just thinking that has to be the hardest job in the world. Trying to do what you think is right and hope is right, knowing you are going to have some people that hate you and doesnt agree with what you are doing.
I dunno. None of this mess makes sense, war never makes sense. It always just leaves people hurt or dead and tensions high.
I remember what rotten said about when it was the vietnam war and back then there was a war draft pulling all men away from their families whether they wanted to go or not. I can't imagine how scared some of these guys as young as 18 or 19 must have been. It's all just too awful.
In a perfect world there wouldn't be any wars, but I think we all know we will never live in a perfect world. I guess we can all just hope for the best and prepair for the worst and hope it will all be over soon.

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ March 21, 2003 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Genie! ]</font>

[Australis]

just to be clear on this... Genie i wasn't asking u to defend your opinion only asking u what the oil had to do with it because u said "our oil" and i didn't get what the US oil supplies or saddam bombing the US (something he has never done) had to do with it... because i agree with AK in that Sept 11 had nothing to do with saddam it was a terrorist group who claimed responsibility and thus far anyway no clear link between saddam and any terrorist group has been proved. so i still don't get it.. but like i've said all along... everyone is entitled to their opinion and not everyone will agree...
Just a word about the protesters tho... in the last few days i have seen peaceful protests turn ugly and riot police called in and police brutality used to disperse the protesters in so-called democratic countries... so much for their right to free speech... and so much for the protesters who got violent and their claims that they're fighting for peace... what a joke... *L*
*sings* "112 billion barrels of oil in the war, 112 billion barrels of oil"

[heidi!]

I was goin to ask if any of you that are against the war have openly protested it.....have you marched...chained yourself to a gate..etc

Im actually sick of the protesters...here in Canada..even when we didnt agree to join the war they are still holding up traffic.....spraying pepper spray at police..burnin american flags and just being public pains in the ass....they call themselves peacemakers but what they are is troublemakers who cant see past their own front doors..Im sick of them...the majority are...its one thing to protest something its another to be out there to get your mug on T.V...
Im thinkin go home...feed your kids and be happy you live in a free country...
[img]mad.gif[/img]

[Australis]

Nope... protesting in that way is all but useless anyway... i've done what i consider to be the only rational form of protest... i've sent tons of emails to the leaders of both the government & opposition and also the head of the unions... and also contacted the tv networks and newspapers via email... there are better ways to make your voice heard than protesting in the streets in my opinion.

[minnow]

Hmmmm...I've been away from this topic for a bit and as always it's been interesting to read what people are thinking.

A few things I'd like to add. I believe that the "coalition" troops will be successful in their goals to remove Saddam and his regime from Iraq. I also believe that people all over the world, primarily in the US and UK will pay for that for decades to come and not merely in dollars, but loss of life.

Bin Laden's goal was to unite muslims all over in the arab states in a holy war against the US. He was not successful in doing that even after he succeeded in destroying the world trade center.

But there is a man who has pulled the many factions of muslims all over the mid east together in a cry of rage against the US and that man is George W. Bush. Prior to his statements that he was going to invade Iraq with or without the support of the UN, muslims were divided...now they are united in the biggest showing of anti-american sentiment ever. It's unprecedented and if you ask me...it's damned scary.

Saddam is a very very bad man. He and his sons are sociopaths. In my opinion they personify evil with the the torture they inflict on the people of Iraq. These horrific crimes against humanity are well documented by organizations like Amnesty International and have been for years. Saddam really does need to go. I question how we are going about it and why all of a sudden it's such a huge issue. Saddam has been doing these things for years and we have stood by and done nothing. He violated the first UN resoloution 12 years ago...where has the debate been? Where have the heated discussions been up until recently? This should have been a major issue to the world way before now. Obviously this has to do with individual agendas.

My primary concern here is that all of the help we were getting from other nations all over the world in terms of intelligence, etc. in preventing acts of terrorism will be seriously diminished. My other big concern is that, culturally, mid easterners are quite different in their thinking (which we often condemn, but rarely attempt to understand) and I'm thinking many of them are going to hold a grudge...for a long time...sadly I think this translates into more terrorism, not less. Our children and their children could very well be paying for what we've done here. This is a can of worms I believe we should have thought more about before opening it.

That said, I have some other comments to make about what is actually going on in terms of the actual war itself. I believe the US/UK does know they are on a very short leash here in terms of the rest of the world and the tolerance they have for this war. I have been impressed with the accuracy of much of the military effort and I hope that "shock and awe" really translates into "restraint and precision" and the coalition forces get in...do their jobs...and get the fuck out with as little loss of life as possible.

I support the troops. They didn't get to vote about whether they wanted to go fight this war. They are doing their jobs. I do not support the decision that sent them into harm's way, but we are in this now. Like it or not (and whether you do or don't I strongly encourage you to exercise your right and contact the appropriate governement officials in your area and make yourself heard...I do...it doesn't take any more effort than posting on this board).

Lastly, I watch this war unfold as the latest reality tv show courtesy of cnn, bbc, abc, etc
and I am quieted inside out of humility, respect, fear and sadness. What we undertake here and whether we are doing the right thing or not will only be revealed when these events are put into a historical context and the world won't know the answer for many years.

(and Moby, you are somewhat correct about what you say about cnn, but good god...all of the media is just as guilty...I was shocked at what I saw in the UK too...unbelievable how they report what they want...representing govt. agendas and answering to advertising dollars...the "spin" that gets put on "fact" is appalling---so don't forget to contact your local media people and tell them you're sick of the hype as well!)

that's all...for what it's worth

[heidi!]

I see alot of people protesting this war..I dont see a whole lot giving idea's on other solutions

Im to the point with this now ..Where I simply pray for the safe return of all the troops over there.....
Protest all you want it wont change the fact that there is a war underway...and it wont stop it any sooner..
Iraq soldiers are using Women and children as human sheilds
They are already defying the geneva convention by the way they are treating the POW's.....
Sadam is an animal that would of had to be taken care of...If not by war...then how..
Anyway....There's a girl captured now....her name is Shauna...and she's from Texas.....Her feet are wrapped in white cloth and are covered in blood...
I'm sick
I'd rather be dead than be captured by those animals...I cant imagine what they will do to a woman over there.. [img]confused.gif[/img]

[CanadianGirl]

I was decidin weither to add to this topic here

By all accounts the recent arms trade show in the Middle
East was well attended. The usual suspects were there
including Iraq, Iran and Libya. Jillian Skeet is a researcher
for the Polaris Institute. It develops strategies for citizens
groups. On Commentary she says you might be surprised
at who was there selling arms.

Today as U.N. weapons inspectors scour Iraq Canadians
will be shocked to learn that just two months ago the Iraqis
were mingling with U.S., British and even Canadian arms
manufacturers at an arms trade show in Jordan.

Incredibly, several major U.S. military corporations
including Lockheed Martin and Raytheon were there. And
an official British delegation headed by Prince Andrew
exhibited their military wares at the arms trade show,
SOFEX 2002. Iraq had also sent a delegation, at one point
surprising the Prince as he toured the exhibits.

The Canadian company there was the former military
communications division of Montreal-based CMC
Electronics which began operating under British ownership
last September.

Western presence at the arms trade show is just one more
example of the extreme hypocrisy that has fuelled western
policy towards Iraq. It also clearly demonstrates that
anything goes in the profitable, globalized arms trade.

Unbelievably, the arms trade show was billed as an event
for and I quote "Countering the Changing Threat of
International Terrorism". The guest list included two
members of the U.S.-dubbed "Axis of Evil", Iran and Iraq,
and all five of the countries on the U.S.high alert list of
countries that sponsor terrorism: Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria and
Sudan.

There is a tragic irony in Iraq's presence at SOFEX 2002
alongside corporations from the U.S., the U.K. and
Canada. For twelve years these countries have insisted
that sanctions must be maintained against Iraq to contain
Saddam Hussein and his military capability.

Iraqis have been forced to endure extreme deprivation and
hardship. It is estimated that 1.5 million Iraqis, including
half a million children, have died as a result of shortages of
food and medicine under the sanctions.

Canadians need to ask why the governments of Canada,
the U.S. and Britain are willing to impose lethal sanctions
and spend billions of dollars on war, while allowing
corporations to pedal arms in the region. Surely arms trade
shows risk spreading military information and technology
to Iraq.

Clearly the time has come for the West to get its house in
order. We need to regulate to all corporations in the arms
industry to ensure that their actions are fully consistent with
our foreign policy.

Better yet, maybe we should just get out of the seedy arms
business altogether. In the meantime, there should be an
inquiry into Canadian participation, and that of other
western countries, in the SOFEX trade show.

It's not a story that's received a lot of play in western media.
But last December, a German paper published a list of
dozens of European and American companies reported to
have supplied Saddam Hussein with materials for
weapons of mass destruction. The paper claimed the list
was included in Iraq's massive document on its weapons
programs that it turned over to the United Nations. Jim
Trautman is a freelance journalist in Ontario. On
Commentary, he focuses on some of those American
companies.

As another war in Iraq gets closer, U.S. administrations
have become masterful at covering up their past and
present dealings with Saddam Hussein. Historically, when
things go badly the U.S. rewrites history to portray itself as
the victim.

In the 12-thousand page declaration that was provided to
the U.N. by Iraq in December, there was a list of the
24-American companies and 30 of their subsidiaries that
provided material to Iraq.

But, in a deal with Hans Blix this information was never
released. In fact, the Bush administration received the only
copy and carefully edited out the incriminating evidence
before presenting it to the other Security Council members.
The list was leaked by a European publication and it
makes for some very interesting reading. Besides naming
the companies it is coded to show what each provided to
the regime.

Companies on the list include: Dupont, Honeywell, Bechtel,
Unisys, American Type Culture Collection, and the Los
Almos and Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Facilities.

The U.S. companies provided rocket engines, nuclear
material, biological and chemical material for weapons of
mass destruction. This included cultures to manufacture
biological weapons.

Little mentioned is the 1994 U.S. Senate report that
focused on the U.S. material and technology that assisted
the Iraqi government to make mustard gas, VX nerve gas,
anthrax and bubonic plague.

Looking at that list one realizes that the cast that provided
the deadly material is the same cast preparing for war
today. Donald Rumsfeld opened the door to Iraq - U.S.
relations in his meeting with Saddam in 1983. Rumsfeld
was Reagan's envoy to the Middle East. He ok'd the
transfer of satellite images to Iraq of where the Iranian
troop deployments were concentrated during the Iran - Iraq
war.

The 54 companies did the selling all with the authority of
the Reagan and Bush administrations. They saw Iraq as a
bulwark against militant Muslim extremism. The U.S.
provided Saddam with deadly outlawed "cluster bombs"
through a phony cover company in Chile. Of course at the
same time the U.S. was supporting bin Laden in
Afghanistan.

And for anyone that believes this commerce stopped,
Halliburton Oil was doing over $100 million in business
with Saddam in 2000. Who was the CEO of Halliburton -
why Vice President Dick Cheney.

This is a war about covering up the deal made with the
devil, and oil - always oil.

[CanadianGirl]

Its a sad thing that war had to come outta this...i'm sure there was a better solution to this all then war [img]confused.gif[/img]